Lacey, Ben et Matt

[Ben] I have a background in creating with code and started just by making my own sites, HTML, CSS, and then really got into WordPress and developing custom WordPress themes. And then I started working on a project where I had limited resources and I was trying to build a lot of sites and it's like, “There's gotta be a better way to do this. This is so, so tough” And so then I found Webflow, and I was like, “Oh sweet, let's give this a go!”

[Matt] In terms of Visual Dev FM, it was originally formed around the idea that Ben and I get coffee every Friday just to talk no-code, and nerd out, and it just started from us being like, we should — the most basic thought ever — we should start a podcast about this. And so we did, and then we met Lacey and the podcast got way better.

[Lacey] So when I'm explaining what no code is to someone, I talk about how I view it as like building blocks to create a project, a website, web app, or mobile app. And that in code, if you think of high level abstractions, that you can kind of reduce down specific types of behavior. And then you can use them as blocks to build with. What I consider no code products is that the intent behind the product is to enable all people to create for the web, so it's the democratization of building software, of building websites. The things I probably don't consider no code are things that don't really give you a lot of control.

[Lacey] Je sais que ce n’est pas un concept nouveau. Je sais qu’il y a eu des progrès dans ce domaine depuis un certain temps déjà. Avec le recul, j’ai l’impression que ce n’était pas le moteur et que la technologie n’était pas non plus derrière pour l’amener là où il est aujourd’hui.

D’après ce que je peux dire, la personne d’origine qui ne faisait pas de code avant qu’il n’y ait pas de code était Tara Reed. Et j’aime le fait qu’elle ait été la pionnière de cette façon. Et elle créait, vous savez, des applications ensemble à l’aide de Google Sheets, Typeform et d’une page de destination. Et ça, c’était avant même qu’on ne l’appelle no code. Donc, pour moi, c’est vers qui je me tourne et c’est à lui que j’attribue le mérite d’avoir dit qu’elle a été la première à le faire, et que vendre le produit qu’elle avait fabriqué n’était pas un code.

[Lacey] I use just two words. No. Code.

[Ben] No dash code.

[Matt] It's no dash code.

[Matt] A common problem that we saw years ago was a lot of people saying, like, “Hey, I've got this idea, but I don't have a technical co founder.” And now you don't need a technical co-founder. If you got the idea, you can be scrappy. I think that what also comes into play as an entrepreneur, or as a small business, is that a lot of these people have limited funding. If you're an entrepreneur, and you're bootstrapping, you're not going to be able to hire a dev team.

And so I think no code, is getting to  the point where it democratizes software development — you don't have to be rich, and you don't have to know how to code, you just have to be willing to learn, and be willing to put in the work. And so I think it opens the doors for all these companies, especially enterprises; I think we're going to start seeing more enterprises come into this space a lot more often.

[Je pense que cela dépend vraiment de la direction de l'espace à l'espace. Je pense qu'il y a beaucoup de développeurs qui y voient un avantage. [J'entends des choses comme] "Je veux juste que vous sachiez, j'ai trouvé Webflow, et oh mon dieu, comme ce qu'il a fait pour moi, au lieu d'avoir à passer tout ce temps à travailler sur les micro interactions, je peux en fait revenir à ce qui se passe sur le back-end et y passer plus de temps."

C'est la même chose pour les concepteurs et les chefs de projet. Un concepteur ne peut pas se contenter de vous montrer une maquette Figma ou Sketch, mais il peut vous montrer " regardez à quoi ressemble cette micro-interaction " ou " regardez comment cela s'écoule ", par exemple, vous pouvez cliquer sur cette application et parcourir tout le flux de l'application. Je pense simplement que cela va aider les gens autour des développeurs, des concepteurs, des PM, je pense que cela joue un rôle très important. Je peux déjà le voir faire ça. Et je pense que ça va continuer à faire ce genre de choses.

[Matt] I think dev shops will start to hire no-code specialists for their team to take some of these projects on that they're getting like that. And for the agencies and freelancers part, like, to me the whole thing here with these three groups is like you get a bigger piece of the pie. You know, like you don't have to outsource, you can handle it yourself.  I think we're gonna start seeing more of these groups, including consultants just like start to adopt the technology because it just works better for you.

[Lacey] I wish that I had learned to code when I was very young, because it's such a great skill to have. So I think that for children, learning how to start using this method of no code building blocks and using those kind of things, to allow them to start thinking creatively. 

In my own personal life I love that I if I get an idea, I can just start, I can quickly spin something up and start playing with it and start validating even just to myself, would this work? Would this be a good solution?

Economic disparity is probably the biggest one to me and the biggest driver for me personally, why I'm in this space, why it matters so much to me, is because it allows people to do something that otherwise they would not have the opportunity to do. Getting a computer science degree is expensive, going to coding boot camps is expensive, learning to code, even if you go through, can be a long process, and that assumes that you have access to a lot of platforms. [Anyone] can become problem solvers, and they can then start making a difference. And that to me is the biggest thing — that people have the power and the ability to impact positive change within your community and within yourself.

[Oh, je pense, mon Dieu, que nous sommes probablement à un an d'ici, je pense.

[Deux ans.

[Deux ans et demi, trois ans.

[Lacey] I think we're looking at probably five years, if not longer. 

[Ben] It's already happening.

[Matt] I think the top tier of colleges will start to teach it probably within the next five to seven years. I think what's more likely to happen is in the next six months to a year, you know, these college extracurricular activities, those groups will start to adopt no code like engineering club and things like that.

[Lacey] 12 to 18 months?

[Ben] No, two years.

[Matt] Yeah, same two years.

[Lacey] I'm thinking more 18 to 24 months. It's gonna I'm just giving myself some room.

[Ben] Three years

[Matt] Probably three or three or four years. I think a lot of people can just bust out a little bit of JavaScript to get the job done with low code.

[Lacey] I think three years.

[Ben]  I think it's about three years.

[Matt]  Yeah, likewise.

[Lacey] Oh, good seven years.

[Ben] I'm gonna I'm gonna take a hot take here. I think in the next two to three years, you can see it.

[Matt] Seven to 10.

[Lacey] I think probably within the next two years.

[Ben] I would put it closer to seven years, probably when you talk about most, but I could be wrong.

[Matt] I say five to six, no, maybe less. I. would say three years if we're just talking about using them in your workflow.

[Lacey] I'm gonna say five to seven. Unless... all it takes though is one thing shifting it. Just one big product coming out that you know?

[Ben]  In the next year.

[Matt] Let's say five years.

[Ben] It's those stories where people are really changing their stars. Their career was headed one direction, and then they found no code and built this and now they run a software company or they an agency.

Or they're doing really impactful work and it's changing their economic situation, or they're using the tools to help people and to make an impact in their community. It's those things that really hit me the most.